Curse

the Puppeteer · Nov 09, 2007, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Glimmer of Light replaces LoD in my hybrid build

Ensign · Nov 09, 2007, 11:38 PM // 23:38

As far as PvE goes LoD is still perfectly viable. It's not like interrupts suddenly become a problem when you go from 1c to 2c. Multiple LoDs stacking better now is a net plus.

Healer's Boon is viable now as well, just make sure that the other Monk is ready to spam Protective Spirit in a tight spot.

Word is strong but the lack of a good party healing option on that character really hurts. It's great in 4 person zones but I don't think it can replace LoD in an 8 man zone. Doesn't combo terribly well with Healer's Boon and one LoD doesn't cut it against harder content...maybe in a 3 Monk backline?

Glimmer is still trash, though I'm sure terrible players will love pushing the Glimmer button on recharge and call that Monking.

Age · Nov 09, 2007, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spazzer

No primary monk worth his salt uses Healing Breeze, and this update won't change that one bit. 15s duration is nothing to scoff at, but it's still 10 energy, doesn't benefit at all from Healer's Covenant, takes 1s to cast, and only functions as a Heal-Over-Time.

That's why nobody's excited over the HBreeze buff.

BLight still won't see much use because it's just not convenient enough. It's 10 energy with no returns, and there are better elites available to the Prot monk who wants utility. Believe me, I used to love the skill when it was introduced and I hate to see it shamed like it is. I -want- to make BLight work in a build, but it basically functions as an elite Heal Other with "benefits".

I like for 55ing that is.

I don't really know about the changes to LoD although I really like Word is is just a good as ZB.will add more later gtg.

Spazzer · Nov 10, 2007, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Pardon. I suppose I wasn't thinking in a solo monk situation, and I've used Breeze myself in times when I've brought Spoil Victor on my 55.

Omniclasm · Nov 10, 2007, 12:33 AM // 00:33

[skill]Word of Healing[/skill] + [skill]Shroud of Distress[/skill]

What more do you need in arenas?

Edit: And I really can't understand the fascination with Glimmer. The energy vs heal is not that spectacular. Being able to constantly spam a mediocre 5 energy cost heal isn't really that fantastic. You just quickly run out of energy. The only way it could be viable is with Channeling, and being surrounded by 3-4 enemies, then it would pretty much own face.

R_Frost · Nov 10, 2007, 12:39 AM // 00:39

ive never used LoD in any build that i can think of in PvE. my heros usually ran WoH for a healer or RC for a Prot and i never had problems exploring or doing missions. if they are going to make it cast the same time and slower recharge then the non elite heal party they should atleast make LoD heal for more then heal party.

«Ripskin · Nov 10, 2007, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Word is strong but the lack of a good party healing option on that character really hurts. It's great in 4 person zones but I don't think it can replace LoD in an 8 man zone. Doesn't combo terribly well with Healer's Boon and one LoD doesn't cut it against harder content...maybe in a 3 Monk backline?

Glimmer is still trash, though I'm sure terrible players will love pushing the Glimmer button on recharge and call that Monking.

I was watching vD earlier today, and they basically just used WoH infuser and a glimmer, with an ether prod heal party. It worked amazingly well. I think we can lay LoD to rest for now.

Omniclasm · Nov 10, 2007, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by «Ripskin

I was watching vD earlier today, and they basically just used WoH infuser and a glimmer, with an ether prod heal party. It worked amazingly well. I think we can lay LoD to rest for now.

And....we go back to life before LoD. Oh no.

«Ripskin · Nov 10, 2007, 12:49 AM // 00:49

I never liked LoD.. I felt like I wasn't being useful unless I spammed reversal.

nechronius · Nov 10, 2007, 01:11 AM // 01:11

Would anybody switch opinions about the current state of Light of Deliverance if they had only nerfed the cast Time to 1.5 seconds?

The nerfing of LoD does bother me, but the removal of the conditional factor is nice. I'll just have to keep LoD on heroes for occasional use and switch to reversing damage spikes with Word of Healing.

Snow Bunny · Nov 10, 2007, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

Light of Deliverance = D-Shot fodder.

It'll be interesting to see if the unconditional party heal is worth the change.

Less healing, 2 second cast.

Nope.

If it remains as such, I will never play it again.

Grammar · Nov 10, 2007, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

As far as PvE goes LoD is still perfectly viable.

After spending my entire day off tinkering with builds, I have to agree with you.
LoD is still the best in PVE, despite everything. Nothing else can do what it does, and the 2 second cast isn't nearly as bad in PvE as in PvP (but it still sucks; it's like freaking Christmas when you get that fast cast). The small loss of healing power is completely made up for by the removing of the 80% condition IMO.
Still playable, still the best option.

As for PvP, it looks like ether prod HP Eles are picking up the slack, which is good, because the monks can't pick up all that slack by themselves.
HB + HP is still bad IMO. Two monks and an HP Ele seems to be the better solution.

Mark Nevermiss · Nov 10, 2007, 01:58 AM // 01:58

I never really liked LoD in PVE. In areas with heavy degen or with strong AoE spikes from monsters, it wasnt enough to recover from party wide spikes due to low heal effect and 5 second recast, and furthermore, you had to be close to your party members putting yourself, needlessly, in harms way.
HB+GoLE+HP is a far superior way to deal with all this. All it takes on the part of the monk is to be vigilant to an incoming spike and precast GoLE accordingly. Then you can cast HP twice in rapid succession healing your entire party in a fairly large radius for about 300.
Not to mention that usually most party members have either enchants or hexes or both on them making Kiss with HB an even better anti spike than infuse.
I always liked HB even when it had the upkeep. It didnt work well on hero monks but it does better now.
Btw I only used LoD with Arcane Echo when I had to use it at all.

Burst Cancel · Nov 10, 2007, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Nevermiss

I never really liked LoD in PVE. In areas with heavy degen or with strong AoE spikes from monsters, it wasnt enough to recover from party wide spikes due to low heal effect and 5 second recast, and furthermore, you had to be close to your party members putting yourself, needlessly, in harms way.
HB+GoLE+HP is a far superior way to deal with all this. All it takes on the part of the monk is to be vigilant to an incoming spike and precast GoLE accordingly. Then you can cast HP twice in rapid succession healing your entire party in a fairly large radius for about 300.
Not to mention that usually most party members have either enchants or hexes or both on them making Kiss with HB an even better anti spike than infuse.
I always liked HB even when it had the upkeep. It didnt work well on hero monks but it does better now.
Btw I only used LoD with Arcane Echo when I had to use it at all.

(emphasis added)

LoD didn't require you to be close to anyone. This isn't Heal Area we're talking about here.

If you're ever getting "party spiked" to the point where you need 300 points of healing to the whole party, you have a different and more significant problem than LoD not being able to keep up.

LoD wasn't designed to save you from OMGWTFBBQ damage. It was designed to mop up the stuff that prot didn't catch, and it was damned good for its job.

horseradish · Nov 10, 2007, 02:22 AM // 02:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grammar

What utility? You mean the 1 second recharge?
The only way that could be seen as utility is if it cleared a space on your bar for an additional prot spell.
In other words, if you ran this: Glimmer, RoF/Kiss, 6 prot spells.
Glimmer is simply not powerful enough or fast enough (even with the 1 second recharge, which is still to slow to chain it) to allow you to carry only 2 heals on your bar. A third heal is still needed, which means Glimmer fails to condense your bar.

As it stands, you're better off taking WoH + RoF + Kiss, since you need 3 heals anyway. Might as well make WoH the third heal instead of Glimmer.
But even that combo is grossly inefficient and ineffective. As Burst said in the above quotation, big single-target heals simply aren't the tool we need. We now lack the tool we need and have absolutely nothing to replace it with.

Who cares that we now have shiny new hammers in our toolbox?
Sure, they're bigger and shiny than our old hammers, but we already had a toolbox full of hammers before. What we really need is a damn wrench! ANet stole our only wrench from our toolbox last night.

The one second recharge IS utility. it replaces the need for a third heal. Infuse Health and Glimmer is all you need. It frees a skill slot for an extra prot spell. It's pretty powerful....considering there will also be another monk in the group.

I haven't seen LoD used at all today in Observer Mode. It was always an Ele with Ether Prodigy and HP. That replaces the LoD hybrid monk because monks have no replacement. On the contrary, i've seen a monk from vD use Glimmer of Light. They won the match. naturally. It is powerful enough to allow you to bring only 2 heals, for what hybrid monk doesn't bring Infuse Health? That is the strongest heal monks have. Follow it up with Glimmer of Light on yourself and you're good.

You seem to be so focused on the matter of Word of Healing vs. Glimmer and completely throwing out the skill and performance of the player and the entire group!

Word of Healing is a great elite, but as i have said before, among other valid points i have said before, the 3 second recharge doesn't help when more than one member of your party is below 50% health(a likely situation with the LoD nerf), then what would you do? Save one by pushing their bar way up and letting the others fall, or save all three in the same time frame it takes for WoH to recharge?

RoF is not a heal. It's a prot spell that is able to heal, but the heal is not consistent. Kiss is a good spell too, but you also can't target yourself, which as a monk, you will need.

Big single target heals aren't what we need. We need spammable, versatile heals. WoH is a bigger heal, and Glimmer is more spammable.

What we need is a party heal, which Heal Party is the only option. It is too expensive. Give it to the Ele.

Now, for your "shiny hammers" analogy. Yes, it is true that we got shiny new hammers we don't need, but the best one we had broke, and the others are brittle. The new ones are shiny and sturdy. The new hammers are also for different uses. We do have a wrench, but we are not as adept in "wrenching" as an Ele is.

I am not dismissing WoH. It's a great spell. I simply prefer Glimmer. I have no problem switching to what my party needs, but Glimmer works. It is not useless. It has utility because of the great heal and fast-as-hell spammabiliy. Word of Healing has an even better heal, but fairly good spammability. WoH is not fast enough to deal with consistent pressure and multiple spikes. Glimmer is at least more useful in that situation.

Omniclasm · Nov 10, 2007, 02:24 AM // 02:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

(emphasis added)

LoD didn't require you to be close to anyone. This isn't Heal Area we're talking about here.

If you're ever getting "party spiked" to the point where you need 300 points of healing to the whole party, you have a different and more significant problem than LoD not being able to keep up.

LoD wasn't designed to save you from OMGWTFBBQ damage. It was designed to mop up the stuff that prot didn't catch, and it was damned good for its job.

But if his 3 SF eles stood in the double meteor showers that the enemies cast, LoD couldn't keep up. Noob.

Melody Cross · Nov 10, 2007, 02:52 AM // 02:52

While I'm very happy to see other elites getting attention, I'm not happy to see LoD broken. Its fairly obvious that whoever is ultimately in charge of skill balance decisions doesn't play monk or understand the class.

LoD is still viable in PvE.

The balance that really caught my eye most (after the LoD skillkill) was Vigorous spirit. Could Anet finally be giving HPrayers enchantments some love after 2 years of neglect? They've a long way to go before HoT can function effectively in combat on par with prot but...here's to keeping my fingers crossed. While I doubt and don't hope that healing will ever surpass it (I'm not looking for a GW WoW) the idea that prot damage negation and HPrayers heal enchants could find synergy makes me a little giddy.

The change to WoH is very cool. High time it was self targeting. The change to HBoon is also pretty sweet. its no longer a trash elite version of a trashier Holy Haste, and HBoon monks can afford to spec prot into their bars and be effective, instead of going full heal and...not...be...effective.. Glimmer? A self targetting Gift of Health means its another ZB; restricted to RA and maybe some split builds but after the initial rush dies down, people will see its not quite as uber as they thought. I'm glad it got buffed the way players talked about and asked it would be. At least now it sees play SOMEWHERE! With proper use of channeling and (I admit it) spamming your behind off, Glimmer is quite powerful in the red bars department. That just makes heal happy monks Diversion targets, not necessarily imba.

GGs

EDIT: @Epic Monkey Battle: I like that build. Ran something very simular in RA during the NF preview and its solid. Recommend you sub out SB for PS. You might like the results.

Div · Nov 10, 2007, 03:02 AM // 03:02

The new HB+HP buff coupled with the LoD nerf bridges the gap between them in PvE. Both are viable methods of party healing in PvE. As for PvP, LoD is pretty bad.

Grammar · Nov 10, 2007, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by horseradish

The one second recharge IS utility. it replaces the need for a third heal. Infuse Health and Glimmer is all you need. It frees a skill slot for an extra prot spell.

As I said in my post, the only way for Glimmer to be viable is if it successfully condenses your bar down to 2 healing skills.
You say it can, I say it can't. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I just have a hard time believing that only Glimmer + Infuse is enough healing to get the job done. From my experience, it is not. Maybe my opinion will change on this in the future, but for right now I'm still not a fan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by horseradish

I haven't seen LoD used at all today in Observer Mode. It was always an Ele with Ether Prodigy and HP. That replaces the LoD hybrid monk because monks have no replacement.

I agree 100% with you here. Monks indeed have no replacement. Two monks + HP Ele is the way to go now IMO.

Chthon · Nov 10, 2007, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

As far as PvE goes LoD is still perfectly viable. It's not like interrupts suddenly become a problem when you go from 1c to 2c.

No, where we're feeling the pain is in the heal per person per second. Lower heal and a 17% longer cycle make it push bars much more slowly than before. That forces you to lean into Kiss and your other heal that much harder and makes failing to prot someone in time that much more punishing.

Quote:

Multiple LoDs stacking better now is a net plus.

True. Not sure if it makes up for the heal/person/time nerf though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grammar

As I said in my post, the only way for Glimmer to be viable is if it successfully condenses your bar down to 2 healing skills.

I think the entire point of this nerf was to render us unable to condense all of healing down into 2, or even 3, skills on a hybrid bar. I agree that you can't do it with Glimmer. And I don't think you'll be able to do it with any other option either. (Though I'm sure wishful thinking will be keeping 2-3 heal skill hybrids as "the meta" for quite some time...) If you did find a way to get adequate healing out of 2-3 skills during the course of this week (without outsourcing heal party to an ele or somesuch), I would not be in the least bit surprised to see it nerfed when this round of nerfs is made permanent.